The Conservative Cat

Oooh! Good take on it. It's a good thing we have superior lif forms like you to figure these things out.

Hey, I was in Nam, too.

And the Murtha, he is indeed patriotic ... he is just a patriot of the other side.

In the manner that the Tories were patriots during the American Revolution.

This is not being bad, by the way.

It is just being wrongheaded about the facts of the matter.

Hmm. Would a truly superior life form TELL us he was superior?

Haven't we already won the war in Iraq? Honestly, I don't get what the big problem is. Saddam is gone, the Iraqi's have a constitution, and they are about to have thier first real federal election. Isn't that enough to declare victory? If we stick around any longer, it can't be defined as a war so much as an occupation. Heck, that's what the majority of Iraqi's themselves are calling it now anyway.

One thing to remember is that the majority of people now questioning it supported it and many voted for Bush. To try and frame their concerns in partisan rhetoric is wrong, not just a political mistake, but a lie.

Even the most radical proposal, that of "cut and run" is not just one of flaky lefists. General Odom was head of NSA under Reagon and is neither ignorant or unpatriotic. I for one want his arguments considered.

http://www.niemanwatchdog.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=ask_this.view&askthisid=129

I myself have doubts. For example I think the existing civil war can deepen. Dozens of neighborhoods and villages around Baghdad are "purifying" with Shiite fleeing Sunni areas and vice versa. This is often a setting for genocidal civil war. So I think we may need to have some force there.

But I want this issue faced and discussed, just as we need to deal with the slowing economy there, the health crisis, the crime and corruption.

http://amconmag.com/2005/2005_10_24/cover.html

In addition to General Odom's arguments we must also face that of many other critics including a large number with military and defence experience. They feel that the war on Iraq has weakened our capacity to fight other terror.

Obviously resources which could be used elsewhere are focused on Iraq. These include intelligence analysts, translators, special operations units and simple attention. Our strained land forces are almost forced to reduce their numbers in Afghansiant.

There are also consequences with our allies. They have been crucial in the capture of thousands of suspected terrorists and supporters. Alienation can reduce this cooperation. This is especially true among Arab nations were we are increasingly seen as supporting Shiite oppression of Sunni.

The later brings up another big issue. Iran is a member of the axis of evil and seems intent on increaing it's power and building nuclear weapons. We are limited in how we act there because of our vulnerabilities in Iraq.

Iranian backed militias control much of the south through which our communications lines run. These same militias are intertwined into the government and the security services. They and the militias of anti American (but not Iranian ally) Sadr control many areas outside of the south. If they were to start acting against us we could face serious losses and problems.

I do not support withdrawal from Iraq, but I do understand why many informed and patriotic people do. I think we have serious problems there and the best way to deal with them is to bring these issues forth and analyze them, not simply divide into simplistic partisan positions.

I am willing to accept some rightists critiques of some leftsist, but I see the right engaging in the same lack of for the real problems and solutions over there. The are caught in silly political games.

Odom's argument is essentially that things are so bad that leaving won't make things worse; however, our goal is to make things better. And I don't care who he is or which Administration he served in. That's the same bogus Appeal to Authority the press used to disguise the fact Murtha had nothing new to say.

Iraq is in fact an essential part of the strategy against Iran. If we succeed in planting democracy in Iraq, Iran will be flanked by three American allies, one of them with ethnic ties to the Iranian population.

The Central Command is actively rebuilding the infrastructure and has developed new technologies for fighting a terrorist insurgency. While peace and an increased standard of living will not end racism in Iraq, it will find less fertile ground to grow.

The Democrats are concerned about how our allies feel, but they are also doing their damnedest to reinforce the worst of those feelings. If you're worried about our allies, tell all your friends to stop electing Democrats.

I'm trying to move the discussion into the realm of solving the problems rather than whether or not we should give up. That is also the goal of the Bush Administration, if that makes you feel any better about it...

"Iraq is in fact an essential part of the strategy against Iran. If we succeed in planting democracy in Iraq, Iran will be flanked by three American allies, one of them with ethnic ties to the Iranian population."

Thanks for narrowing down to 2 sentences a concept I have dedicated too many paragraphs to. I will be using that in the future.

With all due respect to a *superior life form* (cough) shouldn't that be *religious ties*? The Iranians, after all, are Persians; the Iraqis (except for the Kurds) are Arabs. And yes, it DOES make a difference. At least, to the Iranians.

Ethnicity facts:
Iran:
Ethnicity/race: Persian 51%, Azerbaijani 24%, Gilaki and Mazandarani 8%, Kurd 7%, Arab 3%, Lur 2%, Baloch 2%, Turkmen 2%, other 1%

Iraq:
Ethnicity/race: Arab 75%–80%, Kurdish 15%–20%, Turkoman, Assyrian, or other 5%

You are correct, it should be "religious ties", not "ethnic ties". The question then becomes, are the religious ties enough to allow Iraq to become an escape valve for Iranian moderates?

There's also an issue of size. Although only a small percentage of Iranians speak Kurd, it's larger than the number of Iraqis who speak Kurd. Iran's population is 67 million, while Iraq's is 25 million. (This data comes from http://www.ethnologue.com)